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The Refined Collective Podcast

Oct 21, 2020

Thank you Newsstand Studio at 1 Rockefeller Plaza for providing a place for me to record this episode for y’all! No more Brooklyn closet recording!!!


Welcome back to the That’s What He Said series, where I ask men all the questions you’re DYING to know. Last week, Jarod Nickerson shared some major insight into things like, “What should I do if I’m put in the friend zone?” “Does attraction have to be there from the start or can it grow?” and “How can I communicate that I’m developing feelings for a guy without being too forward?” Check it out here if you missed it!


This week, I’m sharing the conversation I had a while back with Jeff Johnson, a worship pastor at Passion City Church in Atlanta. This episode, we talk a lot about his relationship with his wife, Jourdan. Their love story is a beautiful reminder that love stories will look different for everyone. He also shares how a break can be used for growth, the biggest fears guys have in relationships, and how to discuss porn when the guy you’re dating shared that he struggles with it.


Does attraction have to be there from the start?

  • Jeff was physically attracted to Jourdan since the first time he saw her, but he was attracted to her personality as well.
  • “Her character speaks louder than her beauty.”


How can a break be used for growth?

  • They broke up after being together for 8 years. Jeff thought he just needed time to work on himself and they would get back together, but Jourdan moved on and started dating a new guy.
  • When they got back together two years later, their prioritization of communication made the relationship strong.


Which do you value more, respect or love?

  • “Guys want to feel respected and like they carry weight in the relationship.”
  • He acknowledges a lot of men out there did not have the male leaders guiding them to step into their roles as a man.
  • Sometimes we need to just remember that we all have blown it, and it is not productive to expect perfection from the other person.


What are the biggest fears guys have in relationships?

  • If they open up about something, they want to know they will be accepted and understood. They want to feel safe.
  • Being with someone 24/7, everything comes out into the open. “When you get married, there is nothing off the table.”
  • “I know your story and it’s covered by grace, just like my story is covered by grace.”


What about porn?

  • It’s hard for women to hear these struggles because they often fall into the trap of thinking they are not enough, which is not the case.
  • How do you know a guy is serious about recovery from pornography? A huge litmus test: Do you see friends in his life bringing him closer to Christ and challenging him on this? Is he willing to work and fight through his issues? Or is he a passive bystander to his growth?




You may or may not know that I am writing a book! It’s called Sexless in the City: A Sometimes Sassy, Sometimes Painful, Always Honest Look at Dating, Desire, and Sex and it’s coming out in April 2021! Want to stay up to date on all things book related, from book tour, to joining my launch team, to special in-person events (God willing)? Head over to so you can be the first to know.


You know how they say it takes a village to raise a kid? Well, this podcast is like my baby. Did you know you could financially support their favorite podcasts for as little as $5/mo. (That’s cheaper than a cup of NYC coffee y’all!) Head over to to see how you can support the podcast (and get some pretty awesome goodies as a thank you)!